PS: The discussion on this post turned mainly into a (one-sided) debate about whether the content of my contributions passes the Lemmy ideological purity test. So dull, yet so predictable. To be clear: I stand by everything I’ve written on Lemmy. Efforts at shaming will fall flat, as will pompous denunciations and attempts at dunking based on virtual sleuthing. I’m far too secure in my convictions to be bothered by a brigade of insufferably self-righteous progressives trying to one-up each other in their efforts to root out dissidence. To the (quite numerous) others who offered interesting feedback and kind words, thanks.
Here are some reflections on my personal experience of federated social media.
A bit of background. In the 90-9-1 trichotomy, I am one of the 9%: an occasional active participant. As of 3 years ago I had been dabbling in social media since I was a teenager in the 90s, but never very deeply. Newsgroups and IRC; a bit of invisible blogging; various techie web forums; Twitter from 2008 (hardly any tweets); Facebook in the early 2010s (a post or two per week at the peak); then Reddit. As of 2023 I had been “on” Reddit for nearly a decade and not even written 100 comments. Then I decided on a whim to join Lemmy.
The good
Three years later I have written nearly 100 original posts and over 3000 comments! This is an order of magnitude more than I used social media in the previous 25 years. How to explain it?
A bunch of things. I liked the UX instantly, it’s much better than Reddit. No ads, so no nagging feeling that you’re bankrolling a corporation. A (slightly) higher level of conversation quality than Reddit.
Probably the single biggest explanation is just that it’s quieter. On Reddit I always arrived too late to the party. It’s hard to find the motivation to say something when a thread already has 800 comments. On Lemmy, I’d arrive 12 hours after the post and there were only 6 comments. If I take the time to compose my thoughts, somebody might actually see it! I get the paradox here (there are tons more eyes passively looking at Reddit), but the “quiet room” effect is real.
Highlights
Hands down the best community I’ve found here is (no surprise) a specialized one: !birding@lemmy.world. Lots of original content and genuine expertise, zero vitriol or toxicity. Perfect. In a similar vein, !pigeon@mander.xyz, where you can literally post pics of pigeons to an adoring audience.
I’ve also got some value out of !linux@lemmy.world and !privacy@programming.dev for one of those reasons: the ambient expertise. It’s not really breaking news: Linux and FOSS and privacy are really the only subjects where the fediverse can go toe-to-toe with the corporates in terms of expertise. IMO that’s already an achievement that should not be squandered!
Quite a few of my 96 posts are original content (“OG”, ugh). A whole bunch are photos from my bike-touring escapades, which I posted somewhat arbitrarily to !bicycle_touring@lemmy.world , !bicycling@lemmy.world, and !solarpunktravel@slrpnk.net. I rationalize this as an alternative to blogging: instead of hosting your own invisible vanity website, you can write what you have to say in a place where you have less control but where people may actually read it. It’s the logic of social media, basically, but minus the ads and opaque algos and shareholders. As expected, my holiday photos were not viral sensations, but they did attract some love and a few nice comments. Success!
The less good
My experience on Lemmy has taught me something that I knew in theory but (somehow) not quite in practice: Socializing via text on a screen is quite hard to pull off successfully. The lack of physical accountability, the inherent difficulty of text communication (avoiding ambiguity without the help of a face or body language), all this tends to make people into worse versions of themselves. Me included to some extent, I’m sure.
And then there’s the echo-chamber problem. It turns out that when people have an option to avoid dealing with ideas they disagree with (even slightly), very many of them choose that option. IMO this is a major (perhaps fatal) problem with social media. The fediverse is not magically immune from it.
Lowlights
The first - and definitely worst - experience I’ve had was 2 years ago when I got banned from !europe@feddit.org for “racism and gaslighting” on the basis of, well, pretty much nothing except the moderator’s paranoia. Shut out of the single community that had most drawn me to Lemmy, I tried !europe@lemmy.dbzer0.com and in short order had a similar experience. I am a European liberal who votes green, and a moderate on social questions, although admittedly I do enjoy debate. To be shut down so brutally for daring to question progressive doxas in the politest terms - for me this was quite a shocking confirmation of the intolerance of a certain section of the (mainly US) left.
On !degrowth@slrpnk.net I got a virtual slap on the wrist for posting an article offering constructive criticism of degrowth. I’m basically a degrowther myself but I believe it’s important to stress-test one’s ideas (cf. J S Mill). The moderators politely disagreed. Fair enough. I deleted my post and unsubscribed.
The problem on !china@sopuli.xyz, meanwhile was (is) slightly different. It’s that the community is swamped by a single hyperactive member who posts relentlessly on exactly the same themes with the same POV, and - the echo chamber, again - responds badly to any pushback. I contacted the moderator in private and received a virtual shrug.
So I decided to ditch all politics and stick to photos and niche subjects. But even here it has not been plain sailing. A (slightly whiny) post I wrote a few months ago about the difficulty of installing Linux on cheap hardware (a pretty niche subject!) received an avalanche of mockery and insults that really took me aback. And then I really stirred up a hornets’ nest quite recently in this very community when I proposed a feature which would hugely improve my experience of Lemmy without affecting anyone else. Can’t link to that because it got (very belatedly) deleted, ostensibly because offtopic but in reality because the proposal was unpopular. In fact this was my last post on Lemmy to date. Probably not a coincidence.
Conclusions
For me personally, the jury’s still out. I’m pretty ambivalent about social media in general. Since The Atlantic introduced a discussion space a few months ago, I admit that I’ve transferred some of my energy there. And yes, it’s been a better experience. But the reason is no indictment of Lemmy: It’s that The Atlantic has a paywall, which essentially means I’m talking only to privileged people like myself there. I enjoy Hacker News even more, but that’s because it’s super specialized (politics is mostly banned), and professionally moderated, and also (attention: wild POV!) because it’s full of engineers and other spectrumy types who take a Spock-like approach to communication. The problems I’ve had on Lemmy are problems of all generalist social media, not specifically of the fediverse.
In my case what remains are the figures. Despite everything, I have contributed more, and more personally, on Lemmy than I ever did on the R-site or anywhere else. That has to count for something. Corporate social media is a manipulative money-driven spyware-fueled nightmare. The federated decentralized type is obviously, plainly, better. That’s why it has to succeed.
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Also, to add:
Information hygiene here is bad.
Every day, nearly every time I scroll the feed, some spicy headline goes past. When I go to look it up, it’s often completely made-up misinformation, or a warped ragebait headline, or a literally bot-written Tweet, yet it’s voted right to the front page.
…I thought Reddit refugees would be sick of this, and more careful/skeptical, but apparently not. I’ve even talked to some users who don’t understand the distinction between opinion columns and news.
And I had an argument with a mod, who had no problem with an LLM engagement farm Tweet as long as its “the right message.”
people don’t think.
they react.
…I thought Reddit refugees would be sick of this, and more careful/skeptical, but apparently not.
“I thought the behavior that they engaged in on the other site wouldn’t happen here on the new site!”
shocked pikachu face
Yeah while Lemmy has been great for refugees from reddit. Lemmy’s decentralized approach makes it very difficult to deal with bad faith actors.
More than a few extremely bad trolls/people that were banned from Reddit for very good reasons have infected Lemmy over the past few years.
I remember when I first got here, there’s ALWAYS the innitial shock of “what IS this place???”
Once I figured out what this place was, I asked what I thought was an obvious queation.
“If people can interact with the same communities from different instances, wouldn’t it be easy to just make a new account on a new instance? The name might be the same, but the instance is different, so it’s a different account. And since anyone can host an instance, what’s not to prevent someone from hosting hundreds or thousands of instances with the explicit intent on being malicious?”
When I asked that two years ago, I was told by several members that would never be an issue, since instance owners can defederate with instances.
Which I don’t think solves the problem. It seems to me in a cat and mouse game here it’s not the admins who hold the advantage. Seems like the troublemakers hold the advantage.
Because everything the admins have is reactionary. They can only ban after the troublemakers cause trouble. But then they’re back in 10 seconds.
The admins aren’t paid. The mods aren’t paid. It seems to me if troublemakers wanted to shut everything down they would do it with a coordinated attack. Having thoussnds if not millions of bots all at once overrun the human mods.
Eventually the mods and admins would have no choice but to shut down. Too little resources to keep up with the work of running a popular instance.
And thats kind of what happened with lemm.ee. Not trolls per se, but a lack of resources. They ran out of money and resources to host an instance, and that’s without the traffic of overwhelming trolls.
Yet when I said this, I was told I was wrong. Yet here we are. Now you have 1 troll who manually makes account and is banned. Makes account, gets banned. Makes account, banned again.
Thats ONE troll, who honestly seems like he’s doing it for his own amusement rather than malicious intent.
What happens when there’s a much larger concentrated troll attack?
The only way I can think of to actually solve that problem is a whitelist, and that’s a thousand times more work for unpaid moderators and will produce the echoiest of chambers
Tldr OP is a racist Zionist European and therefore has to stick to birding
So a good time apart from the usual cestpools of life: political and news communities.
I agree 100% with everything you’re saying. Expectation of conformity and zero-tolerance of nonconformity form a sort of tyranny that always makes any discussion of locally accepted gospel impossible. Many social media communities seem founded on absolutist beliefs that just aren’t up for discussion at all. Sometimes even asking informational questions out of genuine curiosity is treated as shilling or trolling - I suppose in those communities asking questions about doctrine any right-thinker should already know and accept is automatically suspect.
As a Hacker News-type person I never thought of my communication as Spock-like, but that’s a great term!
It’s comments like these that stop me from leaving. Thanks.
You’re welcome! [also notice we both got douchevoted lol]
I’ll swap my “Spock-like communication” for your “douchevoting” any day.
I was curious about the posts mentioned so I took a look at your history and can kinda see why. The Linux one didn’t make too much sense to me but people were generally nice to you, although understandable skeptical since you’re talking about hardware not working. Honestly you had a bit of a meltdown in that thread, which I think contributed more to the down votes than the initial opinion (like you said, text brings out a worse version of yourself).
The political ones, I mostly pieced together genecide denial (?) which has generally been very unpopular here. To be fair, that was more than a year ago, although what was unpopular then has aged even worse, what with people in Europe getting arrested for pro-Palastinian views and such.
I’m not saying the behavior of mods and such were justified, of course, just… y’know, two sides of the story. You’re in the right to express your views and seek discussion, but others have an equal right to call you out on it-- especially if you get defensive and rude over polite, reasonable responses.
But that’s just my two cents. I only ever comment, and I’ve had moments with people being rude or misunderstanding my intent. It happens, as social media is just that way.
Sure, that sounds mostly fair to me. Except on the silly genocide point, which is maybe revealing of something. Again, I do not have a personal opinion on it and never expressed one beyond refusing to endorse the progressive party line, which seems to have taken on the quality of a religious purity test.
especially if you get defensive and rude over polite, reasonable responses
Defensive, sure. But almost never rude. I’ve made a massive effort to avoid insults and mockery because I understand it’s counterproductive. That is unlike very many of the people who I’ve had the temerity to contradict or disagree with on this platform. It sometimes feels like others often don’t made that distinction (between testiness and outright insult), and take any contradiction of viewpoint as a licence to get personal. You seem to be fair-minded: If you looked more closely, I think you might see what I mean.
The general tone of your comments, i.e. generous but a bit mystified, suggests to me that you just happen to share the prevailing values and assumptions and opinions here. That will go a long way to getting you a good experience.
Oh no, the bigoted sack of shite is upset!
Write another book about it if you want, but no, you can’t play with the leftists. Also getting banned from feddit for being too liberal is HILARIOUS.
Banned for a day. Next time is a perma.
Get ratioed AND go fuck yourself.
Socializing via text on a screen is quite hard to pull off successfully.
People for millennia have been socializing via text on paper and found it extremely easy. Text on a screen is hardly that much different. I think the modern problems society has communicating via text has more to do with the wetware than the software. I imagine a moral panic also exploded 5000 years ago when writing letters became a thing.
This reflects my experience, approximately.
Yeah… Lemmy/Piefed is a mixed experience for niche interests. I fear a set of “insulated hyper-political echo chambers,” to put it somewhat crudely, is not going to attract the masses from corporate social media.
It’s kinda my fault, though. I’m not putting enough effort in seeking out those niches, much less posting in them; it’s too easy to doomscroll.
I keep telling myself to dedicate more attention to “specialized” forums like HN or SpaceBattles or DPReview, but alas, my brain keeps failing me there too.
I got banned from !europe@feddit.org for “racism and gaslighting”
My account on Fedia got permabanned. Don’t even know why. No explanation given, just “account banned” when trying to login XD. I suspect I might’ve gotten caught in fight against bots spamming, but there’s no way to appeal.
Unfortunately there’s loads of reddit style interactions on here. But at a structural level, it’s successfully set up differently from Reddit.
Will be good to see it flesh out more, and I hope it keeps growing.
!birding@lemmy.world mention! Easily my favorite community here too.
My experience is much the same as yours. The Linux community is usually a bit agressive everywhere. I have been banned for questioning things as well. Still, I’d never go back to mainstream social media platforms.
Whenever I see the leftist/liberal infighting and purity tests, like the ones in your comments, im always reminded of a quote from the Mars trilogy by Kim Stanley:
“The revolution turns against itself, because its the only thing its strong enough to beat. You can’t get any group of more than four people without at least one fucking idiot.”
Thanks for your contributions to an open internet. Birding is one of the better communities on lemmy (im a fan of the_pack myself, because I ride a motorcycle and im uncultured i guess :) )
It look at lot of community blocking and leftist super-user blocking to make Lemmy palatable. And even then, you still end up with like the “football” community and all the top posts are about Palestine, Israel, Donald Trump, America bad, like jeez people can you turn it off for five seconds and talk about soccer. Its a bit like the Fox News comment section where you’ll have some innocuous article and half the comments are about Crooked Hillary. But there’s some good stuff on Lemmy you just have to work for it.
What is degrowthing? Never heard of it before
All explained on !degrowth@slrpnk.net
What searches have you attempted?
Usually when you ask someone who’s passionate about something they have no issue going into detail. I guess we’re on that Reddit behavior of just telling the person to fuck off.
Btw the subreddit I was directed to, the sidebar literally said “Discussions about degrowthing”. Brother IDK what it is. Sorry if I sound like an ass it’s a pet peeve of mine when people do this.
It’s a bit of a pet peeve of mine when people are too lazy to even do a simple search for a definition. It’s fine to ask for detailed info. But it’s rude to ask a stranger to provide something you could instantly find on a search engine. I’m happy to provide detailed explanation, but I want to at least see the other person is willing to put in an iota of effort first. If they don’t care, why should I?
