That’s not being “dishonest” that’s just how debates work. You seem to be reading an incredible amount of things into the fact that I wouldn’t do your homework for you.

Although, you had already decided you knew all sorts of things about me from your first comment. Since you had already made up your mind, there was never any way for me to change that.

But I will say, I appreciate that you did finally do your homework. It will be nice to have those sources if I ever need to refute similar claims in the future.

Now that you’ve finally done your homework, presented the sources of your beliefs for me to examine, like I told you to do about seven times, I will happily go through them, since you are no longer trying to make me go on a wild goose chase hunting down every random internet user with something negative to say about the USSR.

Your first source, as mentioned before, is a random Quora user. That’s not remotely credible and it’s ridiculous that you’re still trying to use that even after I addressed it.

Your second source, Russia Beyond, I’ve addressed countless times. It quite clearly says that the average wait time was 6-7 years. Public sector employees might have to wait 10 or more, but the claim was about the average in general, and as I’ve repeatedly told you, 10 is also less than 20-30.

Your third source says:

On the positive side, the boast that ‘there are no homeless in the Soviet Union’ is generally true. But the homes are not what a Western family would tolerate – or what Soviets want.

Which again, the claim was about housing in general and not about upgrades.

Moving on to your fourth source:

I won’t tell you which page that’s located on because I want you to find it for yourself.

Lol, being deliberately obtuse is not how you get people to engage with a source. Nevertheless, because I have such tremendous patience, I looked it up, it’s on page 9. Once again, this is an single individual and tells us nothing about the overall statistical reality, and once again, 10 years is less than 20-30.

Your fifth source says:

Waiting lists for separate apartments could take 10 years or longer

Meaning, you’d have a shared apartment but might have to wait 10 years to upgrade to a separate dwelling. 10 years is still less than 20-30.

Also, Radio Free Europe is affiliated with the US government, just fyi. I take it with a grain of salt, like with the Russian one, but, like the Russian one, it contradicts your position, so that’s your problem, not mine.

Your sixth source says:

But if the room was 14 sq.m – they received the right to improve their living conditions and were included into the waiting list for the new flat, granted from the State (this people are called ocheredniki) . Some ocheredniki have to wait for several years (in Moscow and Leningrad – 10 years and even more).

Once again, that’s saying 10+ years for an upgrade (in specific cities), contradicting the claim of 20-30 years to get anything at all, because, and this is true, 10 is less than 20-30.

Your seventh source says:

During the Stalin era, between 1927 and 1955, the USSR did not increase the extremely low per capita built-up area rates that existed in 1917, 4m2. Cohabitation was frequent and necessary, with about 35% of the population living in shared apartments until the end of the USSR. The queues of waiting to obtain housing took around 10 years.

This one says around 10 years to obtain housing in the Stalin era. I’m not sure if they mean, housing outside of a shared apartment or housing in general, and the situation was worse during that era than later. Once again, 10 years is less than 20-30.

Your eighth source is a Rickroll. I’m not sure why you think trolling me for reading through your sources is a good idea. I think your frustrations have more to do with the fact that you seem very confused about the purpose of sources and how debate works in general, rather than anything on my part.

Your ninth source says:

Instead, the MZhK movement started to be seen primarily as a shortcut for solving the housing problems of young families, who otherwise had to wait in the queue for years or even decades.

This is perhaps the closest any of your sources has come to backing up the claim of 20-30 years, however, it doesn’t explain where that claim actually comes from or how typical it was, or if it’s talking about waiting in the queue for an upgrade, or for housing at all.

There. See, when you do your homework, I do my part too. I’m just not going to do the part of trying to guess where you’re getting your claims and beliefs from.

I’m not sure what part of that Jesus is so broken up about tbh 🤣

Yes, actually, I did. I remain convinced that your source is correct and that it was 6-7, not 20-30.

Your homework.

Bro, it doesn’t matter how many times you say something. What matters is what the fucking source says. It’s like you think if you just say something loudly and confidently enough, that somehow makes it true. It’s ridiculous.

This is what multiple sources (including the ones I posted) actually say.

That’s just an outright lie. I saw the source, you saw the source, I don’t know who you possibly think is going to fall for that. Nobody else is reading this far into a pointless argument in a 4 day old thread (apparently one person did, hi, upvoter) Like, literally:

Who am I going to believe? You, or my own eyes?

God damn, no wonder kids are so fucking stupid nowadays. Nobody can get you people to read.

Buddy, I understand you’re just trying to copy what I said, but you have absolutely no leg to stand on here. The screenshot is literally right there like a smoking gun. If you’re not trolling and aware that you’re spewing bullshit, you have to be the most ignorant person on the planet.

But you know what? Fine. I looked into it and here’s my source saying it’s 6-7 years.

You’ve proven it to my satisfaction too! I’m using your own source, which literally says, word for word, that the wait time was 6-7 years! Nowhere have you presented any evidence it was remotely close to 20-30!

I’m not surprised that you’ve “proven it to your own satisfaction,” given that your standards of evidence are random Quora users and Russian state media you don’t even realize is Russian state media! And even they say you’re wrong! Literally the only standard you’re applying is, “What makes the USSR look bad” or “What lets me win this argument.”

I really don’t know what you’re getting out of this. You are not going to convince me that when it says, “the average wait time was 6-7 years” it actually meant 20-30. You’re not going to convince me that 6-7 is basically the same as 20-30. You’re not going to get me to do your homework for you. Your source says 6-7, not 20-30 so that’s what I’m going with. This is incredibly straightforward.

I legitimately can’t tell if you’re just trolling me or if you’re legitimately unable to understand this. Just find a schoolbus in the morning, and get on it. You need more help than I could ever provide.

Buddy, the burden of proof is on the person making the claim. I’m not going to do your homework for you.

And you can talk all you want about how I “don’t care about the truth,” no amount of posturing will change the objective fact that 7 is less than 20. I’m the only one here basing my beliefs in anything factual.

Funny you say that, guess what happened after the war, when they were captured by the Americans?

Total immunity for all their war crimes, in exchange for their research. Apart from a handful who had vivisected American pilots, anyway, but the ones who experimented on Chinese victims got off scot free.

The US would go on to employ chemical and biological warfare extensively in Korea shortly after, as well as in Vietnam.

Wrong. Your own source said 6-7 years, which you would know if you did the reading. Even then, and this may surprise you to learn, but 10 is also less than 20.

20-30 years is completely and utterly unsupported. It’s a total ass pull. And you’re trying to claim I’m an ideologue because I’m sticking to the facts instead of this made up bullshit that’s contradicted by your own sources.

Tell me, was “what really happened” 6-7 years or 20-30 years? Can you answer that one question?

You’re the one rejecting the evidence in favor of what you want to believe.

I’m the only one of us capable of acknowledging that 7 is a smaller number than 20. If understanding elementary school level math makes me an ideologue, a tankie, whatever else, then so be it. Nothing you say changes those numbers.

Whatever son. It’s a free country, so go with whatever bullshit you want. The evidence backs up u/Blacklazor and not you, I love how you just can’t handle it.

The evidence you presented points to 6-7, not 20-30. I don’t know how else to say it, you’re just objectively wrong by a factor of 3-5 by your own source, and no amount of pretending otherwise will change that fact.

I would also like to point out the parts of his comments that you didn’t dispute or don’t have a probem with

See, this is the problem. Nowhere did I actually claim that the USSR was some kind of perfect utopia. You just assigned those positions to me because you decided I’m a “tankie” so I must believe that, instead of listening to what I actually say. Attacking me over claims I didn’t make is the definition of a strawman.

Nope. If you would’ve actually done the research, you’d have seen that one is usually given a bed in a dormatory, then must get on a waiting list for a “piss poor commie block apartment.” The tiny apartment where a family of four is squeezed into 20sqm is after they waited multiple years. This is if they were lucky enough to get an apartment they didn’t have to share with multiple other families.

This, again, is not how it works. If you “actually did the research” then show me the evidence. You can’t just allude vaguely to some claim you found somewhere, especially since the sources you’ve cited so far, a random Quora user and Russian state media you didn’t realize was Russian state media, don’t exactly fill me with confidence regarding your investigative standards.

It just blows my mind how hypocritical you can be, you found evidence that clearly proves you wrong and you keep projecting on to me that I won’t change my mind in the light of evidence that I’m right.

6-7 is less than 20-30. That’s really all that needs to be said. You just can’t accept that basic mathematical fact because you’re an ideologue.

As things stand, unfortunately, the far-right is significantly better armed and better prepared for a breakdown in government.

While I would prefer to peacefully reform the system, it’s increasingly clear that there’s validity to the saying, “If you want peace, prepare for war.” The fact that the right is better positioned for a breakdown in order allows them to push further and further without fear. Civil war or revolution isn’t going to be something the left chooses, rather, if current trends continue (and it seems like they will) we may end up in a situation where it’s forced upon us and we are left but no choice to defend ourselves.

It’s not necessarily an all-or-nothing deal. There are methods of fighting back that are more effective than relying on the Democrats but don’t constitute full-on revolution, such as strikes. While strikes are non-violent, history has shown that they have potential to become violent, for example, if a boss hires mercenaries to force people back to work at gunpoint.

Likewise, if masked gunmen started showing up to people’s workplaces, demanding some of the workers to be handed over to be taken as hostages, workers need to be prepared to deal with that emergency.

Practically speaking, even if you wanted a revolution, there’s now way that would even be viable while practical steps for community defense have not been made. I’m not sure it’s rhetorically necessary to go further than that, particularly on a public forum.

Yeah but you did it first.

No, literally this was from their very first comment.

You could also try to dispute my source instead of just dismissing it out of hand - like you did to u/Blacklazor.

Again, random internet users are not a credible source. Pointing that fact out is disputing your source. Don’t they teach you this in school?

Ahh, so you’ll trust media from the oppressors you agree with. So basically you’re a tankie equvalent of MAGA.

YOU posted the source! If I had rejected it, you’d be attacking me for blindly dismissing anything that contradicts my worldview! Damned if I do, damned if I don’t, there’s no winning with you.

I literally called attention to the fact that your source is Russian state media, and that you can “say what you will about it,” to indicate that it’s not fully trustworthy. Were you even aware it was affiliated with the Russian government?

I.e. His family of four lived in a 20 sqm apartment (less than 9sqm per person) and would have to wait 20-30 years to get a “piss poor commie block apartment.”

That’s not what he said at all. The 20 sqm apartment was the “piss poor commie block apartment” that one would have to wait 20-30 years for.

Now if you’d read the sources I posted you’d see this aligns very closely with what is described - that being most people who weren’t rich or connected to an oligarch had to wait more than 10 years for an apartment.

I did read your sources, and they in fact said that most people had to wait 6-7 years:

“On average, the waiting time to receive an apartment from the state in the USSR was around six to seven years.”

In fact, you got it backwards. The part about “over 10 years” is about public sector employees. Even then, 10 is significantly less that “20-30,” but I suppose they didn’t teach you that either.

I mean, I know you won’t becuase this hands your ass to your arguement on a sliver platter with a side of trimmings, and if there’s one thing people like you can’t stand it’s being proved wrong, bu whatever.

Lmao, your source saying 6-7 years in contrast to the claim of 20-30 “hands my ass to my argument on a silver platter with a side of trimmings?” Is there any number that would lead you to admit you’re wrong? What would it have to be, 3 years? 1 year? A week? Apparently it can be off by a factor of 5, and you’ll still treat it as some kind of smoking gun that proves I won’t accept being proven wrong.

The projection is truly off the scales.

and other sources you will find if you just quit being lazy and put in the effort.

Skipping the rest of the bullshit you posted

The fact that you posted these right next to each other 😆

I’m sure you wouldn’t want someone to completely disregard your experiences out of hand, correct? Like how you just did to u/BlackLazor.

Just like they did to me, when they said the only thing that drew me to communism was “propaganda” as opposed to my time working under capitalism. The difference is that I discounted their unsubstantiated claims about statistical facts while they discounted my own journey.

According to Quora

According to Quora? Great, so now we have two internet randos saying something.

the wait time was around 10 years

Which is significantly less than what they claimed. So the two internet randos can’t even agree. In that case, which of them should I treat as an absolute authority and which one should I “completely disregard the experiences of out of hand” to use your pretentious language?

Russia Beyond

Finally. Say what you will about Russian state media, but at least it’s more of a source than random people on the internet, which you seem to primarily rely on.

says the wait time was 6-7 years. . . This source also says that Public sector employees (doctors, teachers, etc) had a wait time of 10 or more years.

Which completely contradicts the other user.

Looking at all this, it seems to me what u/Blacklazor said was not incorrect. It may be exaggerated, but the sources say most people lived in cramped apartments with too many people per sqm, were waiting “More than 10 years” to upgrade, and didnt’ get to specify which apartment one was given, or where it was located. So far the account checks out.

What on earth?? “The account checks out” when they were exaggerating somewhere between 2-5 times the actual numbers?

The claim was not, “you had to wait 20-30 years for an upgrade” it was specifically "You weren’t getting any housing in that system. You could enlist in a queue and wait for 20-30 years to get piss poor commie block apartment." That’s completely unsupported by your sources.

What I did say is that you had the same kind of reaction against u/Blacklazor that a religious person does when confronted with questions of faith, because you did. You completely disregarded the account and made zero effort to assess or examine your own position.

It’s also the same reaction a scientist tends to have towards a flat-earther. I don’t know why you think a random internet person saying things is something that should be treated as a reliable source. If someone says, “I walked and walked for miles and the earth seemed really flat the whole way,” am I allowed to “discount their entire experience” or am I supposed to “put effort into reassessing my position” regarding the shape of the earth?

As it turns out, I was 100% right to be skeptical, because your own sources back me up and show that the other person was completely wrong.

The small island country that’s being threatened and economically isolated by the most powerful and militaristic country on earth? Not my first choice.

Why do anti-communists always suggest moving directly into the crosshairs of imperialism?

Weird, I actually live in the system I want to change, but I guess my experiences don’t mean anything, and I should just listen to some random internet stranger about it.

Some of us base our opinions on facts and reason. Is there any actual source on “having to wait 20-30 years for a house?” Or am I just expected to accept that claim completely uncritically?

I can’t help but notice how negative claims about communist societies are placed in this special category where expressing any sort of skepticism about them is seen as somehow morally wrong. It reminds me a lot of how questioning the religion I was raised with was seen as wrong, demonstrating a lack of faith. I’m sorry that I don’t have enough blind faith in capitalism for you and keep blaspheming against your dogma.

Oh no, the free housing isn’t fast enough or big enough, oh no, it looks so drab oh no

What did capitalism do for you? How long do you have to wait now to spend 3% of your income on housing instead of 30%+?

It’s tragic that your family had to spend that money on a mortgage because the state that provided free (or heavily subsidized) housing collapsed. Fucking capitalism, amirite?