Harm reduction voting is kicking the can down the road, or in Christian terms ‘robbing peter to pay paul’
It’s based in fear and cowardice. The only way we will ever change anything is if we are collectively fearless and fucking stand for principles
Its also a self fulfilling prophecy, which is exactly what Dems seem to be hoping for. Splitting the vote so facists keep winning seems more and more to be the real goal of most Democrats since like… Al Gore
Give a productive example
Look at where we are now. With the ratchet effect. You keep voting for genocide? Guess what you get. Kamala literally said there would be no difference, the most lethal military ever, campaign with a McCain and where did that lead us
There are numerous examples of successful socialist revolutions. China is an increasingly relevant example.
but liberals at least talk about things like operation orange chicken with the discussion as the main part of their resistance movement
we should call Trump “cheeto” or “orangutan” even more often, it’s like 10x effective than silly stuff like organizing for revolution for the proletariat
Friendly reminder that a common propaganda tactic is to discourage your opposition from voting
Marxists have been against reformism since the beginning. Is your point that communism is a GOP tactic?
My point is that if you want to win in a first-past-the-post voting system, if you can’t get everyone to vote for your candidate the next best thing is to stop your opposition from showing up. Common tactics are limiting who has access to polling places, purging people from voting rolls, adding barriers to registration, and sabotaging mail-in ballots, but you can also encourage apathy, purity testing or erode faith in the electoral system, all of which work to allow a party with a minority of supporters to win an election.
Communists oppose both the DNC and GOP. Both the DNC and GOP have a minority of supporters.
So real… lol
I would rather liberals don’t have a revolution, last thing I want is more liberalism
Liberal revolution be like:
My wife made that exact same joke when I told her about this
Same applies to modern protest. A big rule of thumb for this shit is: Can the evil leaders ignore what you’re doing? If so, they will. If you cry about how there should be “no kings;” you’re essentially hoping that the worst people on earth suddenly develop a conscience, hear your plea, and correct all of the bad things they’ve done. No, they’ll just ignore it. Here are some disruptions to the status quo that they can’t ignore:
- The economy (go on strike, protest on weekdays, don’t be orderly, in-fact, be a total nuisance to the day-to-day operations in a city - preferably a “high value” location)
- The panopticon (ruin the surveillance state - protest the cameras, protest the data centers (also helps the last point), protest the infrastructure that these things rely on)
- Their livelyhood (protest where they live. And there’s plenty to choose from; the shear number of people whose decisions actively fuck your life is astounding)
Just remember: don’t harm anyone or anything. Protest them. Got it? Good.
Joining a union or creating one is one of the most subversive things one can do in this day and age. Propaganda for unions is very effective at leveraging the class schism in favour of workers/socialism.
Just don’t a union that advocates creating large weaponry or represents law enforcement/servants of the state.
Proper unionising makes capitalists piss their pants. I have read a ton about politics (to my detriment – rip mental health) and it seems to really give you the most bang for your buck.
Unions are good, but you also need a political party that can go beyond trade unionism into an all-sided class struggle.
I would tend to agree on the class party aspect, but as with anything there is an outward motion. The most effective struggle doesn’t start at the higher levels of abstraction. Egoism comes first, not in the Stirnerian sense, where people make sure they are not deported by ice, where military service is eschewed, where when arrested the fifth amendment is kept in mind. The next stage would be tenant unions, trade unions, more organised forms of struggle. Then education, reading circles, discussions, talks and so on. I see the party as the capstone of all of these working class interests. Ultimately it becomes the expression of our species’ interest towards the end of class struggle.
Ultimately, without a party, unions retain their present level of struggle. This means they are highly localized around their own interests, and not the interests of the working class as a whole. This is why a party is necessary to begin with, so that unions can be more militant, connected, and disciplined from the beginning. No time is too early for a party.
Where I am from there are like 8 different leftists parties laying claim to the same chunk of people. There will be one big and relevant party in the end, but getting there has the danger of a bajillion parties competing and creating noise rather than directed struggle. XKCD standards meme
Sure, that’s why having a clear and correct party line is important.
bingo
That’s how it’s always been, look at pre-revolutionary russia same there.
I get what you are saying, the Russian revolution was a success despite sharing a feature that was a great hindrance. I think though that saying “X has always been like this” has a somewhat ahistorical quality to it. There is simply no good knowledge of the future.
It shouldn’t be all that surprising that liberals choose to continue to participate in liberal democracy. It’s their system. They want to see it maintained, they don’t want to see it dismantled or replaced. They like things the way they are, more or less, and they don’t want to see things radically change.
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I don’t want that change either, but I think the right kind of change is not only acceptable, it’s absolutely necessary. I don’t think liberals should be expected to embrace just any change - like change that would make things worse - but they should be open to positive changes, even if those changes seem relatively “radical.”
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Do you think we support either part of the USian uniparty in general?
Yo this meme got people talking 😂😂
Yo OP what is your idea of revolution though?
Is it riots in the streets? Hunting down the elites? Or maybe just voting far left? Please help these liberals figure out how to save this country. No idea is a bad one after all!
Revolution is the overthrow of the old state apparatus and the creation of a new state for the new ruling class, the working class. The tactics of revolution vary depending on the country and conditions, time in the movement, etc, but the overall strategy requires an organized revolutionary class and the replacement of the old state with a new one.
Revolution is the culmination of the difficult work of building a new society. It is not, as most of us who grew up movie-brained were taught to believe, a call of duty mission
Nobody is rebelling. Nobody. Not LIBRULS, not readicals, communists, anarchists, not even fucking nazis, which are just vice-signalling their limp dicks waiting for the result of not even fucking complaining at all. Definitely not OP, who just posts this shit and probably feels smug.
Do you want a revolution? Start it. Do something revolutionary. Risk being put it jail or being killed, which is what happens in revolutions. Or shut the fuck up, because even voting is doing more than nothing.
The only person doing something revolutionary in liberal countries in recent years is Luigi. And he has the balls to admit that he did it. Beyond that, any other protest has been much closer to voting than to an uprising.
The only person doing something revolutionary in liberal countries in recent years is Luigi. And he has the balls to admit that he did it. Beyond that, any other protest has been much closer to voting than to an uprising.
I wouldn’t say he’s the only person, there’s been a lot of scattered protests lately (not counting peaceful marches) and destroying Flock cameras has become a social media trend, but other than that I mostly agree with your point
Adventurism isn’t revolution, it’s a refusal to study theory before taking action. I will never condemn Luigi but to claim his actions were revolutionary fails to explain how they meaningfully gained worker power.
Your vision on revolution is focused on one specific kind. I get why, but I was pointing at all directions, I even pointed out how the stupid nazis are not actually doing anything.
I get the dismissal of single-man action, but that single act changed instantly the approach of that company towards thousands of sick people. Also put other companies on notice. And the whole establishment, for a fraction of a second blinked. The lack of follow-up made it moot.
No power was gained by the working classes. We are not a step further in gaining socialism. The reason there was no follow-up is because it was an adventurist, disorganized act, and organization is fundamental to revolutionary change.
Sure, but that doesn’t detract from the act itself.
How does it not? A random assassination isn’t revolutionary, nor does it advance the worker struggle. Organizing does, it positions us in a better place for revolution.
I am not denying that organization is what allows revolutionary actions to be successful. But they don’t have to be part of organized action to be revolutionary actions. Likewise, the organization itself, though necessary is not revolutionary in itself.
Without revolutionary theory, there can be no revolutionary practice. Random assassinations aren’t revolutionary. Organizing in a revolutionary party is revolutionary because it advances the revolutionary position.
Weeks and decades and all that.
Just going to your local DSA meeting is risking jail at this point or worse.
“Revolutions” aren’t really started by people on the ground, it’s a response to ruling class oppression. All you can really do is organize and hope for the best.
Still, the organization is not in itself (currently) a revolutionary action. Necessary and a step forward, but we still have to recognize that no action at this point is anything beyond preparation.
It’s a worthwhile conversation to have, I agree.
So many people get all ready to take on the system, man, without understanding the infinite hard work of building community.
Fidel started with 12 people. But he had the support of the communities around him. And a murderous regime to oppose.
Well yeah, there are many nuances and it is a very interesting discussion to have. One thing where I am trying to point a distinction is that there is a difference between destroying a regime and establishing a new one and that they don’t have to be tied together necessarily.
It is n necessary to have a structure, ideology and support to implement a new regime, but it is not necessary to carry out actions that disrupt the existing one. Of course we can discuss the usefulness of breaking something without having something else in mind to replace it, but that doesn’t change the action itself.
In the case of Fidel, it was as revolutionary to feed the group as it was to be in the group itself, so supporting them was a revolutionary action, even if led by personal friendship and not deep ideological alignment.
There is no discussion of “destroying a regime” though. What we seek to build are resilient communities.
I get that you’re doing some figuring out here. But you’re actively talking online about things that are now illegal speech. Fidel is an example not of blindly destroying a regime but an example of the importance of building community. Or, organizing.
Now building resilient communities is a great action, but by itself it doesn’t lead to a system change except by evolution.
In any case, my speech is not illegal in any sense. I am not advocating for violence at all and much less in any specific case, since the discussion is purely theoretical and valid for any country or regime.
^fedposter
Adventurism is not revolution.
Nothing happening right now is revolution.
As if you’d know: one post ago you thought Luigi’s adventurism was revolutionary.
Right now, currently. Not a year ago. And if a one man’s action cannot be considered revolutionary, much less whatever OP thinks they are doing. Or you for all that matters.
The point was that you clearly don’t know anything about revolutions
Well then, show me about the revolution you are carrying out right now.
No officer, I don’t think I will.
Groups like the Party for Socialism and Liberation are at the forefront of salient political organizing in the US, and are growing constantly. I think we should join orgs like it and expand the organizing of the working classes.
Revolution has never happened
You might be the only one ever to think that.
No it’s true, no revolution has ever happened and everyone who ever thought they did one was wrong. Nobody is a revolutionary and there is no hope of ever becoming one, leaving us with no path but to do nothing and contribute only hopeless navel gazing. I am a very serious communist.
Strikes have given you basically every working right you currently have, if that’s what doing nothing looks like then I don’t know what to say.
A strike currently is not revolutionary. And still not happening widely anyways.
Strikes are more revolutionary than adventurism, and historically have succeeded far more than simple assassination at getting concessions. They are also practice and discipline for actual revolution.
Sure, they are. But not the ones happening currently. And practice is not the act itself, which is my point. Never said that nothing being done is useful, just that it is not revolutionary. And we shouldn’t think that it is, lest we grow complacent by the level of action.
We need to advance organization, not just commit adventurism.
Never said anything different.
You were praising adventurism as revolutionary.
Striking is the bread and butter of revolutionary activity. The February revolution in Russia was a mass strike that escalated to a point the state could no longer control it. What do you think revolutionary activity looks like?
You are right, people are striking less now than they used to which is a major reason why things are getting worse: cost of living increasing, wages stagnating, the rich getting richer etc.
We need to unite as workers and strike, not vote, for the conditions we deserve.
Of course it is. And that’s what I am pointing at. Any improvements happening right now due to organizing and striking are limited to specific industries and don’t ripple outside of it. For it to be revolutionary, it must be as you say massive, encompassing several/all industries and beyond control. We are so far from that situation, that I cannot accept current moves as revolutionary. Good and necessary, don’t get me wrong, but not revolutionary.
Popular support is needed for a revolution to happen. But striking even on a smaller scale is steel still a very effective way at gaining larger action from the population.
Earlier you said risking being thrown in jail was something revolutionaries should do. What do you mean by that and why would it be more effective than going on strike?
Striking is a magnificent tool.
When I mentioned risking something, what I meant is that when the system notices an existential risk - a revolution - it reacts and goes for the people acting on it, prosecuting or killing them. If the system does not react, it doesn’t recognize the actions as dangerous. Now the system might be slow to react and fail to catch the initial revolutionary steps, that’s also true.
So, if the anti-ICE protests in Minnesota had brought a general strike, even limited to the state, I would have considered that definitely as a significant step. I do think the government would have gone against the organizers, which is what I meant.
All in all, there are many types of protests and actions outside the system that are fantastic and do a lot of good. But a revolution goes much further than that.
risk being locked up revolutionary. lmao bro, you libs don’t even have the slightest idea what the fuck true political organization means. you mfs believe revolution is a one man call of duty mission. the gringo states is truly the most backward brainwashed nation on earth.
What? No revolutionary has ever been locked up?
And political organization is not revolution. It might lead towards it, but it definitely isn’t, so until somebody does start something up, stop deriding others for what you yourself are not doing.
did i say that? no
political organization is way more relevant and actually does something. voting who bourgeois is going to fuck you in the ass with blue or red paint does absolutely nothing but to legitimize your fascist empire.
Still the post talks about revolution and none of those actions are revolutionary. Had it said organize against the current system, it might ring true. And stop pinning things on me you have absolutely no idea about.
who told you we aren’t?
you are the ones who keep complaining when our action inconveniences you in the slightest.
Dude, if your action is an inconvenience, it is not revolutionary.
if my action changes nothing, how do you expect it to change anything??
I don’t.
it shows. it’d be better for everyone if you just got out of the way.
Why, because I don’t expect an action that changes nothing to change anything? You might want to re-read everything.
actions that change stuff will invariably inconvenience you by definition.
